68 Replies
Last post:
Sep 26, 2002 7:04 PM by
Gordon Tyler
Eugene Zhuravlev
Hello Mihai,
A lot of new IDEA users wonder about the lack of this functionality. There's
no per-file save because:
1. IDEA is an IDE and not just a text editor. Thus the file may be modified
not only as a result of its opening in the editor. IDEA can modify files
(e.g. as a result of rename or move) that have never been edited "manually"
during the session. Per-file save feature will make your sources out-of-sync
in this case.
2. IDEA saves everything automatically whenever "needed"
3. There's a Local VCS feature that will allow to recover the files.
So IDEA lets you forget about file saving and concentrate on problem solving
--
Best regards,
Eugene Zhuravlev
JetBrains, Inc, http://www.intellij.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
"Mihai Creanga" <mcreanga@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4016256.1032190656570.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost...
Hello everybody,
>
I would like to suggest you to have a separate Save functionality between
opened Editors. Currently is possible to do a Save only for all opened
Editors.
>
Thanks much. You are doing a great job there!!!
>
Mihai
Guest
Ah...I was looking for a button(I also tried clicking all over the differences); such as in select the version, review the difference, then click the rollback button. Thanks.
Though, being able to pick a particular change and rolling it back would still be nice, such as those accidental line deletes.
I have used other products that can do mass changes to many files at once and not had any problems with files getting out of whack. In general, mass updates usually require you to approve them before they are executed.
I had been keeping Local VCS off, cause I did want the overhead, but I guess I have little choice. 
Anyway, thanks again for the tip.
Paul Bradshaw
Seriously, in all my work with IDEA, the lack of 'individual file save' has
never been an issue. It just isn't. You have "undo", which does the
right thing. There's just no need. In fact, I like it BETTER, because I
never get into a situation where I look at a file outside of IDEA or use a
tool outside of IDEA and get the 'wrong version' because I haven't saved.
Every time IDEA loses focus, it saves, so the on-disk representation is
ALWAYS coherent to external tools.
I really think you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill here. Even
without LVCS it's wonderful. With it, it's vastly superior.
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4629099.1032381975832.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Ah...I was looking for a button(I also tried clicking all over the
differences); such as in select the version, review the difference, then
click the rollback button. Thanks.
>
Though, being able to pick a particular change and rolling it back would
still be nice, such as those accidental line deletes.
>
I have used other products that can do mass changes to many files at once
and not had any problems with files getting out of whack. In general, mass
updates usually require you to approve them before they are executed.
>
I had been keeping Local VCS off, cause I did want the overhead, but I
guess I have little choice.
>
Anyway, thanks again for the tip.
Guest
Sorry, didn't mean to make my opinion and experiences an issue.
I just brought up a point of view. I also acquiesced(again) to changing how I do some things. And, I actually made positive suggestions on some improvements that could be made; instead of the constant 'bloat' and 'it is the only way/best way' mantra.
I guess some people have the product they want and are not willing to share it with others. Different people different ways of doing things and different comfort levels.
Personally, I don't like the auto-save. I turned it off at first, but have turned it back on because it was to much risk other wise. I also turned back on the LVCS and will make use of it, as my post clearly stated.
A shame compromise isn't a two way street.
As for the superior part, I am actually reserving judgement for the final product, and in comparison to what I currently have available. There are some very nice features, though there are many I will like not use for one reason or another. And, IDEA ultimately has to fit in with my way of working(with reasonable compromise on my part).
I have to justify the cost of buying something new(extra), that is different from what we currently use here and what I already have.
And, I've been burned by the environment, twice so far; partly because it is trying to force me to make to many changes in style. But, that is just me.
One thing I will not say is that other peoples ways of doing things is wrong or invalid. I don't know that much. I can just offer my opinion, Jet Brains can listen or ignore it, their call.
Paul Bradshaw
I seriously think you're still misguided. You say you don't like the
autosave. My question to you is: Why? Seriously. It sorta bothred me at
first too, just because I was so used to having that single-file save. But
after I got over being bothered by it, I realized it was completely
unnecessary. I didn't miss it. No matter how one looks at it, this is a
change for the better. So I seriously think you should sit down and ask
yourself WHY you're fighting it? What is it you're really missing? I can't
see anything, at least nothing in the real world.
I just don't see any reason or any purpose to any 'compromise' I guess. And
I think EVERYONE on here has gone through this stage... changing the
mindset. Just because you're used to something doesn't mean it's necessary
or even right... and given the whole paradigm shift that IDEA represents,
having to make a mental shift about how files get saved really isn't too
much to ask. In fact, being able to completely free my mind from ever even
having to think about it is one of the vastly many major bonuses to using
IDEA.
- Paul
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:2486311.1032460398614.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, didn't mean to make my opinion and experiences an issue.
>
I just brought up a point of view. I also acquiesced(again) to changing
how I do some things. And, I actually made positive suggestions on some
improvements that could be made; instead of the constant 'bloat' and 'it is
the only way/best way' mantra.
>
I guess some people have the product they want and are not willing to
share it with others. Different people different ways of doing things and
different comfort levels.
>
Personally, I don't like the auto-save. I turned it off at first, but
have turned it back on because it was to much risk other wise. I also
turned back on the LVCS and will make use of it, as my post clearly stated.
>
A shame compromise isn't a two way street.
>
As for the superior part, I am actually reserving judgement for the final
product, and in comparison to what I currently have available. There are
some very nice features, though there are many I will like not use for one
reason or another. And, IDEA ultimately has to fit in with my way of
working(with reasonable compromise on my part).
>
I have to justify the cost of buying something new(extra), that is
different from what we currently use here and what I already have.
>
And, I've been burned by the environment, twice so far; partly because it
is trying to force me to make to many changes in style. But, that is just
me.
>
One thing I will not say is that other peoples ways of doing things is
wrong or invalid. I don't know that much. I can just offer my opinion, Jet
Brains can listen or ignore it, their call.
>
Guest
Well, I?ve never thought of myself as misguided; just seriously disturbed.
Partly, it is not something I am used to and partly it is contrary to other applications that I use. But, as I said, I have made that particular compromise, and that is what it is to me, because I am doing something special and different to work with IDEA. It is partly a personal taste and preference(and being a control freak at times).
I don?t understand why voicing an opinion or supplying a point of view has to be considered fighting? I call it a chance for discussion, enlightenment(maybe by more than one side), and maybe even compromise or resolution. I don?t understand why ideas cannot be discussed with an open frame of mind; I am not cookie cutter individual. Why is there a need to squash out ideas, experiences, and opinions because they don?t fit your paradigm? Doesn?t sound like a community to me.
And, ironically, as I thought I had clearly stated, I actually indicated that I has rethought what I was doing and made adjustments. I am not looking for a fight, just the right to be heard and understood.
As for the paradigm shift, I understand(the are sort of my life), though I don?t always shift at the drop of the hat; fortunately.
But, what I mean by compromise is not just related to this issue, but others. Someone decides there is only one way to do things, and is either unwilling or unable to understand why it might not work for all. As I said, I don?t have a problem with people doing things in different ways, so long as it works for them. I just find it sad that discussions sometimes sound like my parents; ?cause I said so?.
And, no offense, but what someone can ask me to do and whether it is or isn?t too much to do, is my call.
For example, I get IBM WASD for free. I have to justify making the individual purchase, much less the paradigm shift(and the up current swim) of going against the flow here.
When I see that ideas are being squashed out right without even a reasonable attempt at understanding, and, gasp, acknowledging, it makes me take a huge step back.
Lots of IDEs have auto-complete. A lot of the time I out type the auto-complete and only really use it for those hard to remember methods. Code formatting is not unique; different IDEs do it in different ways. So of the features can be annoying at times; the intentions sometimes get in my way(and yes, other times, they are a help). Some IDEs are very customizable, others are from only certain points of view, and some are rather stagnant.
As for refactoring, IDEA has the advantage there, for now; I also look at this long term. How long will it be before others offer those refactoring options. And, in some cases, I usually end up doing it myself, because I don?t remember the keyboard command and don?t feel like searching for it in the menus; but that is just me. And in some cases, I can do it quicker(really, how hard is it to reverse an ?if? statement; I don?t need to be asked every time; and yes, I need to turn it off at sometime).
The other feature that I really like about IDEA is active compiling. Though, that has gotten me into trouble by trusting it too much; it can lag and not tell you about a problem until it is to late. But, pressing the compile button and following the links to the errors is not a huge problem either.
So, I have to balance the features I would really use, the ones I want, and how I work, with my other available options. I then look at the long term value; the cost and return on investment. Plus the continued cost; cost being not only monetary.
Chris Merrill
Mark Shotwell wrote:
> Well, I?ve never thought of myself as misguided; just seriously disturbed
Ignore him...you're not misguided...just accustomed to something different.
> Partly, it is not something I am used to and partly it is contrary to other
> applications that I use. But, as I said, I have made that particular
> compromise, and that is what it is to me, because I am doing something
> special and different to work with IDEA. It is partly a personal taste
> and preference(and being a control freak at times).
Many of us on the list have been through this ourselves. I'm also a control
freak. I also had a hard time getting used to having no save button. Give
it a few weeks before making a decision. I found that after a while, I could
completely forget about the whole file-saving concept...and concentrate on
more important things. One I gained faith in IntelliJ to save the file at
the proper times, I found that it is a much more natural way (for me) to
work.
Now, I find myself wanting other apps to work this way. Why do we have to
worry about saving files at all, I wonder? Since not saving the file
is normally the exception and saving the file is the 'rule'...why not
always save the file? (with proper undo features, such as LCVS, of course)
I'm now convinced that someday the whole concept of manually saving files
will be obsolete and all apps will have some sort of version control
system built into them.
*********************************
Chris Merrill
*********************************
--
*********************************
Chris Merrill
*********************************
Guest
Yeah, I know I can turn it off there, I just haven?t yet, until I learn more about them, and the scope of the intention; I don?t want to turn one off if it still has some value, thought the reverse if is definitely high on my list.
But thanks anyway, though I do understand what you mean about it not being entire intuitive.
Guest
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I know more about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right click to rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more valuable.
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation of it; roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and then close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to; but I can also get use to some other things(and have)
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts back(not that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while back.
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features. It is one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and mouse friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the price, it gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is my only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features in IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change) IDEA is a royal pain to use, cause I can?t do some things easily(for me). I would absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the toolbar; I know some people don?t. I constantly go for it, but it isn?t there. Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to be honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in bed, with my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems; such as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA causes me another problem).
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it works well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should. Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much value if they are not convenient to me.
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
Michael Morett
Mark,
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file, hack it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution is to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option isn't
available from within IDEA.
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this route so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program (WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand alone or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making the
decision of if I want to save a file.
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world doesn't end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto sync
if it's that important?
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force me to
undo B?
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I know more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right click to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more valuable.
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation of it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to; but I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while back.
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features. It is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the price, it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change) IDEA is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in bed, with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems; such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA causes me
another problem).
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much value if
they are not convenient to me.
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
Guest
Well, stonings aren't too bad, unless they start using the really big ones(plus bricks and cinderblocks).
I can see both sides of the debate.
LVCS can be useful, though I have never really had a need for anything like it before. Whenever I plan huge changes, I always make a full version back up, so that I can easily back off all changes at one time(though I've needed to, but it is still nice to have the piece of mind).
I had the autosync and save turned off, along with the LVCS. But, because of I can't close without saving, I turned those back on, though I am reconsidering turning of the auto-save and/or auto-sync.
JCreator has auto-sync, but it asks you first if you actually want to do the sync(because, sometimes, you don't want to). Trying to find the combination of features in IDEA that work the best for me; which is a bit of a pain. Of course, what I want to do with IDEA or any other IDE is to install it, do the settings, and start being productive.
Well, whatever you do, do forget your sunglasses for the cerimony; I hate it when I get bits of dirt and rock in my eyes.
dimiter
Hi Michael, Mark,
I'll give you an example why I find autosaving consistent. When you change the name of
interface, it could affect hundreds of files at once. The other editors/IDEs don't have
this problem, because their only 'mass file change' feature is search and replace within
project, which by definition should be used with care.
SOLUTION 1: Open all files and let me choose which ones I want to save
PROBLEMS: You'll end out of memory, the Swing will bog down, if you haven't constrained
the tabs in one row, there might be not enough space for the tabs on the screen
SOLUTION 2: Load the modified files in memory, but do not save them, until I hit Save
PROBLEMS: What about if your machine crashes or if you just kill the process by accident?
SOLUTION 3: Autosave all files which are not currently open in the editor, let me choose
which and when to save the files open in the editor
COMMENT: It's almost done, just have to put a single 'Save' button and perhaps 'Save As'.
As long as we have the 'Save on frame activation/deactivation' option, it wouldn't bother
me. Just don't put these buttons on the toolbar... (In fact I'd give 15 votes on a
'Customizable toolbar' request, but I'm too lazy to submit one
my 2c
dimiter
Michael Morett wrote:
Mark,
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file, hack it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution is to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option isn't
available from within IDEA.
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this route so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program (WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand alone or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making the
decision of if I want to save a file.
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world doesn't end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto sync
if it's that important?
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force me to
undo B?
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I know more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right click to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more valuable.
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation of it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to; but I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while back.
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features. It is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the price, it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change) IDEA is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in bed, with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems; such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA causes me
another problem).
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much value if
they are not convenient to me.
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
Paul Bradshaw
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need to do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less on what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like that.
Not any more.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file, hack it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution is to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right click to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to; but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features. It is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change) IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA causes me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much value if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
Michael Morett
Hi Paul,
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar. Even the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I was
making the changes)
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to get to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file A (or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2 and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the space key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise reconciling the
issue.
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I choose to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a save one
file only option.
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need to do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file, hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features. It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
Paul Bradshaw
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnl2r$gpl$1@is.intellij.net...
Like I said, the "we know better than you" mentality.
>
Sorta like the obstinately rigid mentality of clinging to an inappropriate
and outdated way of viewing the issue in a situation where that view, once
valid, simply no longer applies? Hrm?
Michael Morett
"obstinate."
"rigid."
"inappropriate."
"outdated."
mark, help....i'm being stoned...i knew it would come.
Paul, I am not asking that you save files one at a time. Why are you
refusing to acknowledge that others may want to have that option or that it
may be useful under some circumstances? It doesn't affect your way of
working. This bewilders me. The save one file only option takes nothing
away from the current mode of operation. It only adds an additional choice.
In all honesty, I gave up on Jetbrains providing this option. I just go to
WinCVS and get a clean copy of the file(s) in question.
But, I wish you would stop being...
obstinate...and rigid.... with your inappropriate and outdated thinking.
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amptao$qoi$1@is.intellij.net...
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnl2r$gpl$1@is.intellij.net...
Like I said, the "we know better than you" mentality.
>
>
Sorta like the obstinately rigid mentality of clinging to an inappropriate
and outdated way of viewing the issue in a situation where that view, once
valid, simply no longer applies? Hrm?
>
>
Guest
Yeah, sadly, I figured this was where it was heading. I sort of gave up yesterday.
As I said earlier, some already have what they want; too bad for the rest of us. I guess a few of us are just too dumb, aniquated, lame, and/or all the rest of those big words I don't understand, to do it the new, improved, better, and only way.
Didn't you know, it is wrong to be different or unique.
I still find this all somewhat ironic.
But, I have gotten a kick out of this thread. Gives me a chuckle every time I see it increase in size, and all over such just one issue. So, I figure, why not get post 50 for grins.
But, it has helped me to decided that I just need to step back, see where the final product winds up, and go from there. Well, that and sending a list of suggestions and wishes to the makers of some of the IDEs I currently use.
Best of luck, and, well, duck and weave a lot; makes you a harder target to hit.
Michael Morett
....and if they do give us a save one file only menu item, I'd suggest that
they name it in honor of us.
"Save single file (for goobers like mike and mark)"
think of publicity!
PS. I gave up too.
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:5606754.1032912917675.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Yeah, sadly, I figured this was where it was heading. I sort of gave up
yesterday.
>
As I said earlier, some already have what they want; too bad for the rest
of us. I guess a few of us are just too dumb, aniquated, lame, and/or all
the rest of those big words I don't understand, to do it the new, improved,
better, and only way.
>
Didn't you know, it is wrong to be different or unique.
>
I still find this all somewhat ironic.
>
But, I have gotten a kick out of this thread. Gives me a chuckle every
time I see it increase in size, and all over such just one issue. So, I
figure, why not get post 50 for grins.
>
But, it has helped me to decided that I just need to step back, see where
the final product winds up, and go from there. Well, that and sending a list
of suggestions and wishes to the makers of some of the IDEs I currently use.
>
Best of luck, and, well, duck and weave a lot; makes you a harder target
to hit.
>
Paul Bradshaw
Sigh. Let me try explaining it in a different way:
Your way:
In the normal case: you have to mentally keep track of what you saved, when
you saved, and when you WANT to save, and then consciously click the save
button (or hit a 'save' keystroke).
In the unusual case: you have to remember to not save the file and close it
and then reopen it (if necessary).
The IDEA way:
In the normal case: nothing. everything just works without you ever having
to even think about it
In the unusual case: you undo, or you revert the file. One quick, specific
action in either case.
Note that the IDEA way is just inherently more efficient... the usual case
requires no explicit actions and no thought on your part. Only in the
unusual circumstances is there an action required, and this really is as it
should be (and note it's no more action than required in the unusual case in
your way... in fact, I'd say it's less work still). It's just a win all the
way around. I simply don't see your point here or why you're clinging to a
way that takes more work and is less efficient.
All I'm saying is give the IDEA way a chance and stop fighting it, and you
might really begin to appreciate it like I and so many others have. If
something seems to be a bit too awkward, ask others about it, and maybe
there's a simpler way. I'm not a CVS user, so I can't help you in that
area, but I can tell you that I use Perforce and do NOT use the Local VCS,
and IDEA just never ever gets in my way... once I learned to change my old
habits. It's true that an IDE should work WITH you, but there are many
cases where learning to change old habits is actually a very good thing.
Sometimes it's good for an old dog to learn new tricks.
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:5606754.1032912917675.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Yeah, sadly, I figured this was where it was heading. I sort of gave up
yesterday.
>
As I said earlier, some already have what they want; too bad for the rest
of us. I guess a few of us are just too dumb, aniquated, lame, and/or all
the rest of those big words I don't understand, to do it the new, improved,
better, and only way.
>
Didn't you know, it is wrong to be different or unique.
>
I still find this all somewhat ironic.
>
But, I have gotten a kick out of this thread. Gives me a chuckle every
time I see it increase in size, and all over such just one issue. So, I
figure, why not get post 50 for grins.
>
But, it has helped me to decided that I just need to step back, see where
the final product winds up, and go from there. Well, that and sending a list
of suggestions and wishes to the makers of some of the IDEs I currently use.
>
Best of luck, and, well, duck and weave a lot; makes you a harder target
to hit.
>
Seidenstein, Richard
This would be a nice option to have in the update dialog box (as a checkbox)
instead of having to type it in...
-
Original Message-----
From: Michael Morett mmorett@ebuilt.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 4:44 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Re: Save
awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
thx.
"Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
>
You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update dialog
to
get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
>
--
-Original Message---From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Save
>
>
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
>
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
>
Sounds like it to me.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.
Russ Egan
BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Actually, I've often wished for a seperate menu item on the CVS context
menu for "revert" or "revert to repository version" or something like
that. Having a seperate menu item would:
a) mitigate the -C-is-sticky problem
b) make the feature more obvious to new users
c) translate well to other source control systems
Gordon Tyler wrote:
| Although, it MUST NOT be an option that is not saved between calls. Just
| imagine if it did save the -C option and you update a file you just
| spent a whole day on and it wipes all your changes out because you
| forgot to uncheck the -C option.
|
| Seidenstein, Richard wrote:
|
|> This would be a nice option to have in the update dialog box (as a
|> checkbox)
|> instead of having to type it in...
|>
|> -
Original Message-----
|> From: Michael Morett mmorett@ebuilt.net
|> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 4:44 PM
|> To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|> Subject: Re: Re: Save
|>
|>
|> awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
|>
|> thx.
|>
|>
|>
|> "Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
|> news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
|>
|>> You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update
|>> dialog
|>
|>
|> to
|>
|>> get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
|>>
|>> -
Original Message-----
|>> From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
|>> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
|>> To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|>> Subject: Re: Save
|>>
|>>
|>> That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
|>>
|>> Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with
|>> the
|>> CVS integration or with the CVS product?
|>>
|>> Sounds like it to me.
|>>
|>> "Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
|>> news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
|>>
|>>> Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
|>>>
|>>> ???
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
|>>
|>>
|> It
|>
|>>> will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
|>>>
|>>> Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
|>>>
|>>> Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
|>>
|>>
|>> the
|>>
|>>> crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a
|>>> file
|>>> (for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
|>>
|>>
|>> laundry
|>>
|>>> list of workarounds.
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> "Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
|>>> news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
|>>>
|>>>> Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
|>>>> right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> nothing.
|>>>
|>>>> I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
|>>>
|>>>
|>> can't
|>>
|>>>> just hit undo?
|>>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>
|>> _______________________________________________
|>> Eap-bugs mailing list
|>> Eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|>> http://lists.jetbrains.com/mailman/listinfo/eap-bugs
|>>
|>>
- -
|>>
|>
|>
|> -
|>
|>> This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use
|>> of the
|>
|>
|> designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended
|> recipient
|> of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination,
|> distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This
|> communication is for information purposes only and should not be
|> regarded as
|> an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial
|> product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official
|> statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed
|> to be
|> secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this
|> information
|> is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All
|> information is subject to change without notice.
|>
|>>
|>
|>
|> _______________________________________________
|> Eap-bugs mailing list
|> Eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|> http://lists.jetbrains.com/mailman/listinfo/eap-bugs
|>
|>
-
-
|>
|> This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of
|> the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended
|> recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review,
|> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
|> prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and
|> should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an
|> offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any
|> transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email
|> transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free.
|> Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or
|> accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is
|> subject to change without notice.
|>
|>
|
-
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Version: GnuPG v1.0.6-2 (MingW32)
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Gordon Tyler
I have submitted a feature request: 4541
http://www.intellij.net/tracker/idea/viewSCR?publicId=4541
Please add details and votes as you see fit.
Russ Egan wrote:
--
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE---Hash: SHA1
Actually, I've often wished for a seperate menu item on the CVS context
menu for "revert" or "revert to repository version" or something like
that. Having a seperate menu item would:
a) mitigate the -C-is-sticky problem
b) make the feature more obvious to new users
c) translate well to other source control systems
Gordon Tyler wrote:
| Although, it MUST NOT be an option that is not saved between calls. Just
| imagine if it did save the -C option and you update a file you just
| spent a whole day on and it wipes all your changes out because you
| forgot to uncheck the -C option.
|
| Seidenstein, Richard wrote:
|
|> This would be a nice option to have in the update dialog box (as a
|> checkbox)
|> instead of having to type it in...
|>
|> --
-Original Message---|> From: Michael Morett mmorett@ebuilt.net
|> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 4:44 PM
|> To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|> Subject: Re: Re: Save
|>
|>
|> awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
|>
|> thx.
|>
|>
|>
|> "Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
|> news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
|>
|>> You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update
|>> dialog
|>
|>
|> to
|>
|>> get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
|>>
|>> --
-Original Message---|>> From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
|>> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
|>> To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
|>> Subject: Re: Save
|>>
|>>
|>> That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
|>>
|>> Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with
|>> the
|>> CVS integration or with the CVS product?
|>>
|>> Sounds like it to me.
|>>
|>> "Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
|>> news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
|>>
|>>> Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
|>>>
|>>> ???
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
|>>
|>>
|> It
|>
|>>> will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
|>>>
|>>> Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
|>>>
|>>> Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or
not is
|>>
|>>
|>> the
|>>
|>>> crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a
|>>> file
|>>> (for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
|>>
|>>
|>> laundry
|>>
|>>> list of workarounds.
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> "Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
|>>> news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
|>>>
|>>>> Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
|>>>> right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> nothing.
|>>>
|>>>> I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
|>>>
|>>>
|>> can't
|>>
|>>>> just hit undo?
|>>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>
|>> _______________________________________________
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Gordon Tyler
Software Developer, R&D
Sitraka -- Performance is Mission Critical
Nikolay Nikolov
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar. Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to get to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2 and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Michael Morett
Nikolay,
I'm not using LCVS...
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnkis$g81$1@is.intellij.net...
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
>
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar. Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make
some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had
mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am
using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to get
to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2
and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then
hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the
file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The
contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you
and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of
and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make
use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes
me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need
to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that
I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less
on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons
and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off
auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to
A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain
in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and
force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that
the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted,
and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still
use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used
to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support
is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the
features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't
there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and
to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more
problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because
it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nikolay Nikolov
what i really meant was LVCS, which i imagine is on when any external VCS is
used.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnl4g$grr$1@is.intellij.net...
Nikolay,
>
I'm not using LCVS...
>
>
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnkis$g81$1@is.intellij.net...
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete
whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
>
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar.
Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make
some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had
mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I
was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am
using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to
get
to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file
A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a
broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a
save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2
and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the
space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then
hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the
file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The
contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise
reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I
choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you
and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of
and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make
use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes
me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a
save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need
to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that
I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control
or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo
or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less
on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current
solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this
option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going
this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second
program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA
shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of
making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those
defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons
and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having
a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off
auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes
to
A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode
of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain
in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and
force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that
the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted,
and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still
use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used
to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a whil
e
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface
features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support
is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the
features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to
change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me).
I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't
there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow;
and
to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light,
and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more
problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because
it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Michael Morett
Hi Nikolay,
Actually, I turned of LVCS at the suggestion of someone else on these boards
who thought it was a performance issue. He might be right since IDEA is
much faster than in the past, though I can't say for sure if LVCS was the
problem.
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnoe9$jtf$1@is.intellij.net...
what i really meant was LVCS, which i imagine is on when any external VCS
is
used.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnl4g$grr$1@is.intellij.net...
Nikolay,
>
I'm not using LCVS...
>
>
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnkis$g81$1@is.intellij.net...
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete
whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
>
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar.
Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make
some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had
mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file
B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I
was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and
we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am
using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes
made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to
get
to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on
file
A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment
like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a
broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a
save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1,
2
and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the
space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and
then
hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to
IDEA ---the
file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The
contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have
to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise
reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is
not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I
choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may
not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for
you
and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve
of
and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary)
make
use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday"
amazes
me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a
save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I
need
to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now
that
I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file
in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control
or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about
a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via
undo
or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and
less
on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho.
It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed
very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense
like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a
file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current
solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this
option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going
this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second
program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will
stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA
shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of
making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those
defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance
reasons
and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of
having
a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn
off
auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes
to
A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode
of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a
pain
in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and
force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as
I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the
right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think
that
the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I
wanted,
and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I
still
use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am
used
to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a
whil
e
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface
features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable
and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for
the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP
support
is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the
features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to
change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for
me).
I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on
the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't
there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow;
and
to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working
in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light,
and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more
problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it
because
it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it
does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of
much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nikolay Nikolov
and yes, if your lvcs support is off, i agree that things could get a bit
out of hand.
...it would make sense if save per file was allowed but only in this case
(LVCS disabled).
my 2c
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnl4g$grr$1@is.intellij.net...
Nikolay,
>
I'm not using LCVS...
>
>
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnkis$g81$1@is.intellij.net...
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete
whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
>
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar.
Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make
some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had
mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I
was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am
using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to
get
to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file
A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a
broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a
save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2
and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the
space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then
hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the
file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The
contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise
reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I
choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you
and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of
and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make
use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes
me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a
save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need
to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that
I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control
or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo
or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less
on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current
solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this
option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going
this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second
program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA
shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of
making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those
defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons
and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having
a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off
auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes
to
A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode
of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain
in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and
force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that
the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted,
and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still
use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used
to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a
while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface
features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support
is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the
features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to
change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me).
I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't
there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow;
and
to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light,
and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more
problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because
it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thomas Singer
Ok, than you should enable it.
Think about following: an application has the ability to configure how
many undo-steps will be available. You set it to one or zero to speed
up the application. Would you now ask the developers to implement a
special feature to come around a mistake you done?
Tom
On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:07:31 -0700, "Michael Morett"
<mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote:
Nikolay,
I'm not using LCVS...
"Nikolay Nikolov" <nnikolov3@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amnkis$g81$1@is.intellij.net...
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or delete whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
>
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar. Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make
some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had
mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am
using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to get
to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2
and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then
hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the
file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The
contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you
and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of
and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make
use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes
me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need
to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that
I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less
on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons
and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off
auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to
A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain
in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and
force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that
the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted,
and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still
use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used
to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support
is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the
features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't
there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and
to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more
problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because
it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sam Wilson
Could it be that even though LCVS recognizes the file as unchaged, that the
date stamp on the file is still updated, thus throwing off CVS? It'd be nice
if when you undo a file back to its "unchanged" state LCVS resets the file
timestamp to what it was before...
sw
--
-Original Message---From: Nikolay Nikolov nnikolov3@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:56 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Eap-bugs Re: Save
i do the same thing all the time. then of course i undo or
delete whatever
i've typed and hit ctrl-s (save all).
the interesting part is that LCVS is smart enough to figure out that i
haven't done anything and the file becomes black (unchanged) again.
not sure why you're having this the problem.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very
similar. Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the
same. I make some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I
had mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods
to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of
where I was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B
and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what.
Because I am using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real"
changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In
order to get to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean
Copy on file A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy
comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying
in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3
followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in
files 1, 2 and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as
hitting the space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space
bar and then hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to
IDEA ---the file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with
CVS. The contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I
now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise
reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the
IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can
happen if I choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly
things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save
it for you and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to
approve of and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if
necessary) make use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light
someday" amazes me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only
to add a save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the
changes if I need to
do
something like that. This is what version control is
for. Now that I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient
unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of
version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to
worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always
recoverable via undo or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the
code and less on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive
change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it
seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about
nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes
open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My
current solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since
this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits
of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a
second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I
will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under
IDEA shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the
process of making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of
those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for
performance reasons and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative
of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me
to turn off auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to
save changes to A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the
current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But
it's a pain in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A
and B and force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS,
especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat;
the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I
think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different
implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out
what I wanted, and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad)
habit I still use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what
I am used to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a
tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the
interface features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more
customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA,
but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real
JSP support is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some
of the features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not
going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things
easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous
button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but
it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum
and flow; and to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally
working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in
dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me
more problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like
it because it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it
does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are
not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Eap-bugs mailing list
http://lists.jetbrains.com/mailman/listinfo/eap-bugs
Michael Kirby
On 23 Sep 2002 at 10:06, Michael Morett wrote:
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I
choose to save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly
things may not compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me
save it for you and you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is
horrible.
The downside is that it is one more path to check. IDEA already has far to many options if
you ask me. It must be a nightmare for the developers to verify that they didn't break
something unexpected whenever they change code.
In my opinion, there should be less options, not more. (that is, of course, as long as they only
remove those options that I don't use
Mike
---
To obtain my PGP public key, mail "SEND PUB KEY" in the
subject to "kirby@ess.mc.xerox.com"
Paul Bradshaw
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you can't
just hit undo?
I think you're desperately clining to an old way of thinking about it, and
that's what's causing you problems. Because really, there simply isn't a
problem. Learn to let go.... I'm serious. I thought I would miss it.
I honestly don't, not for a second. And now I wish I didn't have to worry
about 'saving' stuff in other apps... it's one of those minor mundane
details that the computer should worry about, freeing me to think about more
important things. Which is what IDEA is all about (like in my favorite
case: refactor->rename, and refactor->change method signature.... IDEA
takes care of the mundane stuff, while I just concentrate on the
functionality and the high level).
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amnhhi$c4h$1@is.intellij.net...
Hi Paul,
>
How about a real life example of what happended 5 min ago.
>
I've got about 7 files open. Two of them are named very similar. Even
the
code inside is similar looking, though not exactly the same. I make some
minor changes to one of them, but it was the wrong file. I had mistakenly
thought I was working on file A and instead I made the mods to file B.
>
(Let's not digress into the "you should pay more attention/be more
careful"
comments for now. I agree I should have been more aware of where I was
making the changes)
>
In my world, I dont save the changes to A and paste it to B and we're
done.
In IDEAs world, changes are saved to A no matter what. Because I am using
CVS, the mods to file A (even though there are no "real" changes made
because I backed them out) appear to be a new version. In order to get to
where I started from, I need to do an Update | Get Clean Copy on file A
(or
save the changes in CVS and provide no comment or a dummy comment like
"there are no changes --this is really the same file".
>
Let's be clear about the ramifications of what I am saying in a broader
context. Inadvertant keystrokes in files 1, 2, and 3 followed by a save
needed for a different file (4) force me to undo changes in files 1, 2 and
3. These inadventant keystrokes could be as simple as hitting the space
key
by accident. I just did it to test it. I hit the space bar and then hit
backspace to get to where I was before I did that, but to IDEA ---the file
is changed. Now I have a file that is out of sync with CVS. The contents
are exactly the same, but because IDEA chose to save it, I now have to
deal
with the task of getting a clean copy from CVS or otherwise reconciling
the
issue.
>
This heavy handed "I know better than you" approach by the IDE is not
helpful. For christ sake, what is the worst that can happen if I choose
to
save a file by itself? What is the downside? Suddenly things may not
compile? So what. I can address that. This "let me save it for you and
you can undo it if you dont like it" mentality is horrible.
>
Why is it an all or none choice? You guys can continue to approve of and
enjoy the current behavior, while I and others can (if necessary) make use
of a "save this file only" behavior when needed. This is such a no
brainer
to implement that the fact that this has been debated on multiple
occasions
with Jetbrains and others saying "you'll see the light someday" amazes me.
I'm not saying stop the save all files functionality; only to add a save
one
file only option.
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:amnc02$3ha$1@is.intellij.net...
I do that as well... but instead of relying on using an in-memory
unsaved
version as my 'version control', I just revert the changes if I need to
do
something like that. This is what version control is for. Now that I'm
used to it, it seems really weird to use a transient unsaved file in
memory
(inconsistent with the disk image) as some sort of version control or
poor-man's "undo". I defintely prefer never having to worry about a
saved
state, and knowing that all changes are always recoverable via undo or
via
version control system. I can concentrate more on the code and less on
what
the state of each editor is. It's a VERY positive change, imho. It
didn't
take me THAT long to get used to it, though like you, it seemed very
weird
to me at first because I was so used to worrying about nonsense like
that.
Not any more.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amfjp5$gin$1@is.intellij.net...
Mark,
>
I gotta agree with you on this one. I also sometimes open "a file,
hack
it
up, and then close without saving the changes." My current solution
is
to
use WinCVS and perform an Update | Get Clean Copy since this option
isn't
available from within IDEA.
>
I dont use LCVS and dont know much about the benefits of going this
route
so
I cant comment on the rollback thing.
>
But for my particular situation, I have to rely on a second program
(WinCVS)
to undo a save I didn't want done in the firstplace. I will stand
alone
or
stand with you and hold fast to the notion that under IDEA shouldn't
be
making that decision for me, or remove me from the process of making
the
decision of if I want to save a file.
>
I dont understand the aggresive defensive posture of those defending
this
"feature". I've got auto-sync turned off for performance reasons and
so
when I do a CVS Update, I'm immediately out of sync. The world
doesn't
end.
I do manual syncs when needed. If the biggest negative of having a
per-file
save is an out of sync environment, then why allow me to turn off auto
sync
if it's that important?
>
Bottom line: if I have files A and B and I want to save changes to A
and
not B, I can't do it in IDEA. That's sad. Does the current mode of
operation hinder my work? No. I work around it. But it's a pain in
the
ass to have to do this. Why make me save changes to A and B and force
me
to
undo B?
>
I'll see you at the stoning ceremony Mark...
>
>
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:4722211.1032471759569.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Well, I am not against the auto-save and the LVCS, especially as I
know
more
about it. I do think that it can be improved somewhat; the right
click
to
rollback was not very intuitive to me. If anything, I think that the
feature can be expanded and improved even more, to make it more
valuable.
>
MS Word has auto-save, as does Excel, just a different implementation
of
it;
roll back is primarily by closing the file without saving it.
>
And, sometimes, I open a file, hack it up, copy out what I wanted, and
then
close without saving the changes. Just an old(bad) habit I still use.
>
It just happens to be how things currently are and what I am used to;
but
I
can also get use to some other things(and have)
>
However, with that said, I really conceded the debate few posts
back(not
that it really did much good); I actually went on a tangent a while
back.
>
Though, I find a certain irony in all of this.
>
Truth is, I am more concerned about some of the interface features.
It
is
one of the reasons I use JCreator over WASD; more customizable and
mouse
friendly. JCreator may not(yet) be as fancy as IDEA, but for the
price,
it
gets the job done nicely; the current lack of any real JSP support is
my
only main issue with it. But, at the same time, some of the features
in
IDEA are very nice, especially the JSP support.
>
Sometimes, for me(and this is something that is not going to change)
IDEA
is
a royal pain to use, cause I can't do some things easily(for me). I
would
absolutely love to put a find next and find previous button on the
toolbar;
I know some people don't. I constantly go for it, but it isn't there.
Having to stop and reach for F3 screws up my momentum and flow; and to
be
honest, annoys me to no end. Sometimes, I am literally working in
bed,
with
my laptop and optical mouse(I love those things), in dim light, and
constantly have to change hand positions just causes me more problems;
such
as my all too common ctrl-c when I meant to ctrl-v(which in IDEA
causes
me
another problem).
>
I really am trying to like the product, but I will like it because it
works
well for me; not because anyone else tells me that it does/should.
Basically, all of the fancy features in the world are not of much
value
if
they are not convenient to me.
>
And, I still say I am seriously disturbed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Michael Morett
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
???
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them. It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a laundry
list of workarounds.
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you can't
just hit undo?
>
Paul Bradshaw
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
Sounds like it to me.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them. It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
Seidenstein, Richard
You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update dialog to
get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
-
Original Message-----
From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Save
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
Sounds like it to me.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them. It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Eap-bugs mailing list
http://lists.jetbrains.com/mailman/listinfo/eap-bugs
-
This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.
Michael Morett
awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
thx.
"Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
>
You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update dialog
to
get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
>
--
-Original Message---From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Save
>
>
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
>
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
>
Sounds like it to me.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Eap-bugs mailing list
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the
designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This
communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as
an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial
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is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All
information is subject to change without notice.
>
>
Chris Bartley
Careful with this...i seem to recall someone mentioning that IDEA remembers
the "Additional Options" settings and that they accidentally blew away a
bunch of modified files because they didn't realize that -C was set.
Ouch.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amt70s$uuv$1@is.intellij.net...
awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
>
thx.
>
>
>
"Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
>
You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update
dialog
to
get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
>
--
-Original Message---From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Save
>
>
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
>
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with
the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
>
Sounds like it to me.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not
is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a
file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Eap-bugs mailing list
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Seidenstein, Richard
Thats what local VCS is all about
-
Original Message-----
From: Chris Bartley spam@feynman.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 4:59 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Re: Save
Careful with this...i seem to recall someone mentioning that IDEA remembers
the "Additional Options" settings and that they accidentally blew away a
bunch of modified files because they didn't realize that -C was set.
Ouch.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amt70s$uuv$1@is.intellij.net...
awesome. i never occured to me, though now it's humiliatingly obvious.
>
thx.
>
>
>
"Seidenstein, Richard" <Richard.Seidenstein@lehman.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1032974768.17930.eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com...
>
You can add -C in the "Additional Options" field on the CVS update
dialog
to
get a clean copy. You need a CVS client version 1.11 or greater.
>
--
-Original Message---From: Paul Bradshaw pbradshaw@vignette.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:18 PM
To: eap-bugs@lists.jetbrains.com
Subject: Re: Save
>
>
That's because I use Perforce instead of CVS.
>
Maybe your issue is not with the 'save' or with IDEA at all, but with
the
CVS integration or with the CVS product?
>
Sounds like it to me.
>
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them.
It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not
is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a
file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Eap-bugs mailing list
>
>
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This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of
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designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended
recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This
communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded
as
an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial
product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official
statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to
be
secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this
information
is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All
information is subject to change without notice.
>
>
>
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http://lists.jetbrains.com/mailman/listinfo/eap-bugs
-
This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.
Paul Bradshaw
As an addendum, you can go to the External Tools options and add calls to
your version control system there (this is what is done when you have
Perforce, since native Perforce integration isnt' included). These tools
then are added to your right-click menus. You can specify a 'revert'
command line, and from that point on, be able to right-click, revert.
"Michael Morett" <mmorett@ebuilt.net> wrote in message
news:amqne5$su9$1@is.intellij.net...
Maybe because I don't have the option of Perforce or Revert.
>
???
>
>
All I have is CVS related options and Get Clean Copy aint one of them. It
will only merge any local changes with what's on the CVS server.
>
Undo is an option under many circumstances and may suffice.
>
Not having the choice to decide whether I want to save a file or not is
the
crux of the issue. There may be times when I do not want to save a file
(for whatever reason), and I dont have that option. Instead I have a
laundry
list of workarounds.
>
>
>
>
"Paul Bradshaw" <pbradshaw@vignette.com> wrote in message
news:ampt80$qg6$1@is.intellij.net...
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. In that same situation, I'd just
right-click, Perforce, Revert. Done. No comments, no 'labels', no
nothing.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so complicated. Or why you
can't
just hit undo?
>
>
>
>
Guest
Yes, I know that; used them, and many other application, for many years.
And, I can see the advantage to the IDEA?s autosave, backed with the LVCS, I have said so a couple of times already.
But, since we want to beat the dead horse, there are disadvantages.
For example, let?s say I am editing a bunch of files at one time(I set my Tabs to 25), and currently have changes in 2 or 3. Now, I Alt-Tab to another application, so IDEA saves for me. Now, when I come back, I lose that little * that shows me which files I was working with. To me, it is a mild a annoyance as it disrupts my work flow.
Since IDEA does not have a MRU switching capability, and I can?t put the tabs into an order(MRU, manual, whatever), it is harder to find my files again; though I might be able to use ctrl-e to do it(except I don?t get my little * back unless I make a change to the file and it is not currently part of my work flow).
You could do a version of auto-save, that is a mix of MS and IDEA. The auto-save would save the changes, however, it would not mark the file as saved. Then, the user could have the option of closing the file without changing(in which case, IDEA would simply do the rollback for them). The best of both worlds(even ISPF can do something somewhat like this; and you only risk the loss of a single page of data at any one time).
Of course, with some of the design limits(tab limits), this could cause some problems and require some checking(such as give the user the option of what to do with a file that is about to be shoved of the tabs but that has changes to it).
As for the crashing, if the application is stable, that is generally not a problem. On my machine(laptop, 1G, 512M, W2K) I currently run IDEA, JCreator, MS Word, IE(several instances), Notetab Pro, CuteFTP(usually 3 instances), telnet, and Lotus Notes , and occasionally Excel, PowerPoint, Rumba(often 2 or 3 instances), and/or some other random applications(notepad, wordpad, calculator, cd play, media player), plus all the background stuff(Novel, Netware, Norton AV, etc.), all at the same time, and crashing has never been a problem.
I can honestly say I have been burned more by having changes saved to something(rather by accident and/or on purpose) than by any crashes. Following the concern you have placed forward as a justification, I would suggest that auto-save should occur when changing files(tabs), just not changing focus from/to IDEA.
Paul Bradshaw
>>For example, let's say I am editing a bunch of files at one time(I set my
Tabs to 25), and currently have changes in 2 or 3. Now, I Alt-Tab to
another application, so IDEA saves for me. Now, when I come back, I lose
that little * that shows me which files I was working with. To me, it is a
mild a annoyance as it disrupts my work flow.
<<
I'd say that's an issue with the Tabs, the lack of an MRU switching ability,
etc... not so much a problem with auto-save. Personally, I used to rely on
the * all the time, but now I just don't. Which makes me hurt for an MRU
switching ability all the more (I keep adding more votes to it in Tracker,
hoping against hope they'll slip it into this release... it's REALLY needed,
and Ctrl-E is no substitute).
So I completely agree with you on this one... I just put the blame elsewhere
I think relying on the * is more a side effect of not having a good MRU
switching and tab-ordering mechanism, given the IDEA paradigm.
>>You could do a version of auto-save, that is a mix of MS and IDEA. The
auto-save would save the changes, however, it would not mark the file as
saved Then, the user could have the option of closing the file without
changing(in which case, IDEA would simply do the rollback for them). The
best of both worlds(even ISPF can do something somewhat like this; and you
only risk the loss of a single page of data at any one time).
<<
Sounds like an intersting concept, but let me take a stab at it from a
different perspective... IDEA should allow you to specify a "label" for a
given version automatically, and assign one automatically when a file is
first opened and brought into an editor. You could reset the label to 'now'
any time you wished on any given editor or set of editors. Rollback would
always go back to the last 'labeled' version. Note, there wouldn't be a
dialog with you typing in a label name or anything like that... just
something automatic under the covers. Then there would be no need for a
'save' icon at all... just a 'mark' to mark the current version as something
you want to be able to rollback to if you need to.
>>I can honestly say I have been burned more by having changes saved to
something(rather by accident and/or on purpose) than by any crashes.
Following the concern you have placed forward as a justification, I would
suggest that auto-save should occur when changing files(tabs), just not
changing focus from/to IDEA.
<<
You make a good argument for this. It might be worthy of a Tracker
suggestion.
Guest
Already did that a while back; http://www.intellij.net/tracker/idea/viewSCR?publicId=3739&browserPos=0
It is currently in To Be Discussed limbo.
I was hoping to come up with something that could be a compromise(on no the dreaded word), meet the requirements/needs of other users on multiple items(menu customization, toolbars, optional commands, etc.), without having to add a bunch of new interfaces(just expand an existing one). It could even be useful for the plugin makers and those that use them.
Paul Bradshaw
I would guess that a whole-sale rework of the UI (which adding a fully
customizable set of Toolbars would be, a la MSDEV) will wait until the next
version. But I really hope it happens then (along with macro recording).
There's just not time enough left in the development cycle for this version.
"markshotwell" <jiveadmin@intellij.net> wrote in message
news:7250407.1032626818868.JavaMail.jrun@is.intellij.net...
Already did that a while back;
http://www.intellij.net/tracker/idea/viewSCR?publicId=3739&browserPos=0
>
It is currently in To Be Discussed limbo.
>
I was hoping to come up with something that could be a compromise(on no
the dreaded word), meet the requirements/needs of other users on multiple
items(menu customization, toolbars, optional commands, etc.), without having
to add a bunch of new interfaces(just expand an existing one). It could
even be useful for the plugin makers and those that use them.
>
>
Michael Kirby
And this is the way most of us prefer it. Now if I can just convince Eugene to figure out a way
to make it so I can forget about the problem solving part too
Mike
On 18 Sep 2002 at 22:49, Eugene Zhuravlev wrote:
So IDEA lets you forget about file
saving and concentrate on problem solving
---
To obtain my PGP public key, mail "SEND PUB KEY" in the
subject to "kirby@ess.mc.xerox.com"